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October 23, 2011

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Internationalist

Good article and I agree with your words on race, though it is not simply that guilt-tripping race-based politics are "inapplicable" in this country or that country.

They are just plain reactionary and wrong, wherever they pop up.

Duncan

The free Babar Ahmad lot were out in force at St Paul's yesterday as well with stalls and a large banner.

Ray

Just a couple of points Paul. First off, how nice that you have been able to critique Islamists here without (so far) being accused of being a HP Zionist running dog. Regarding the combat arts and strength training I think that the anarchist and libertarian scene is a lot more tolerant toward all this than in the past. I can remember being very roundly criticised for my interest in pro boxing and certainly I found that my political and my martial arts mates (with a couple of exceptions) very separate tribes. A few months ago I sat at the bar of the Calthorpe Arms after an ALARM meeting and had a really interesting chat with a comrade about "punching your way into grappling range" and I thought, "yes, I waited a long time for this". Good to see you at the Bookfair BTW.

Mark

can you recommend any good books or essays etc criticising "guilt politics". we have a bit of that here in NZ and I'm interested in reading any good critiques of it if there is any

Internationalist

Mark, I don't think it is "guilt politics" that is under attack but rather "identity politics" and the politics of "the margin", where politics is based on being black, gay, Jewish or some other minority. People in the mainstream then define themselves in relation to these minorities as if they have something to (collectively) feel guilty about.

For a critique of Jewish identity politics you should read Gilad Atzmon's new book, "The Wandering Who?"

If you want to find identity politics and tribalism at its absolute worst, visit the Zionist cyber ghetto Harrys Place, as referenced by Ray.

For some reason that I still cannot fathom, Paul Stott likes the HP cesspit enough to promote it on his own website.

james walsh

Identity and guilt politics go hand in hand.

Internationalist and his third worldism is all tied up together now. A book on mental health is what is really needed when dealing with such cases specially as most politics has become about appeals to peoples preduices and nerousis. The funnyist thing about lefties is they claim not to have preduices- lol.

Of couse Internationalist doesn't do guilt politics as his ravings above about 'Zionist cyber ghetto Harrys Place' clealy shows- lol. He's another sick nutter who thinks he should be in charge of the asylum.

Duncan

'For a critique of Jewish identity politics you should read Gilad Atzmon's new book, "The Wandering Who?"'

I disagree. I don't think you should take anything written by Atzmon seriously, and in particularly nothing he's written about Jews, because he is a racist slimeball.

Internationalist

"because he is a racist slimeball."

So I keep hearing/reading in publications as diverse as the Jewish Chronicle and Socialist Worker. But having read TWW and followed Gilad's blog I have yet to find a single antisemitic comment.

As has been observed, once upon a time "antisemite" referred to someone who hates Jews. Now it refers to someone whom Jews hate. These are different things. If you get called an "antisemite" by the creeps at Harrys Place it simply means you have understood how hasbara works and are no longer fooled by it.

Atzmon does a brilliant job of demolishing the Jewish ideology without saying anything racist. Someone should do a similar job on Roman Catholicism and Islam. Then we can move on to the lesser identity-based ideologies (pan-Africanism, Rastafarianism, Gay Liberation ...)

Then maybe just maybe we will take a step closer to class-based internationalism.

james walsh

@ Internationalist

What would I gain from reading Gilad that I havn't got from Israel Finkelstein? I have enough unfinished books as it is and before I start anything else I'm going to finish my Cohan and

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Radical-History-Britain-Visionaries-Revolutionaries/dp/0349120269/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b/280-5843792-3786516

and I may move on to this


http://www.amazon.co.uk/English-Rebel-Thousand-Trouble-making-Nineties/dp/0670916196/ref=pd_sim_b_1


Hopefully I'm not being to much into identity politics- but i would like to know why the one bit of identy politics that goes unquestioned by Leninists etc in general (something I don't think Internationalist is particuly guilty of- in fact he can be pretty good at knocking down such nonsense)is knocking the English working class for crimes they haven't even commited and attacking our advanced culture.

Disco

james walsh: "What would I gain from reading Gilad that I havn't got from Israel Finkelstein?"

Well maybe Norman Finkelstein rather than Israel Finkelstein would be a better either/or...

But Atzmon is a much more modern take on Jewish identity, from the inside (from right inside), and he's really astute and he's got balls - which pisses off just about everyone. Anti-semitism, in his case, is a smear. And it's repeated with such vehemance it reveals more about his critics than it does about him. Worth a read.

Internationalist

Spot on Disco. Exactly what I found.

In fact, when David Aaronovitch tried to get the book The Wandering Who? banned from the Times bookshop on the grounds that it was "antisemitic", I challenged him to cite one single antisemitic passage or quote from the book.

He couldn't and the discussion ended. However, Aaronovitch is mentioned in the book as a journalist who plays a key role in shaping British public opinion in favour of Zionist wars, so I can understand why he is alarmed and upset.

Of course there ARE genuine antisemites out there but by and large it is an unwarranted term of abuse these days.

Atzmon argues that the more Jews are assimilated the more Zionists look for antisemitism where it does not exist, since assimilation would spell the end of jewishness as a separate identity and therefore the end of the Zionist project. Thus they get excited whenever there is an antisemitic incident (of which there are very few in Britain, with most of them coming from muslims who are enraged by the situation in Palestine).

The same applies to other identity politics. That is why, for example, our old friend Rasta is constantly on the look out for anti-black racism and talks as though there is still a slave trade, calling white people "crackas". Unless he can find evidence of widespread racism his ideology is pretty well bankrupt.

Likewise radical feminists get upset whenever there is evidence that actually, most men are NOT rapists. This is a threat to their carefully crafted identity as "victims".

Of course all of this is divisive and alienates white working class people in particular.

All identity politics is reactionary.

Charlie Kerins

There's an alternative view on Notts Indymedia: https://nottingham.indymedia.org/articles/2118

mark

thanks (I think!) for that Charlie. and your comment was good too. that Notts indymedia article kinda showed up exactly whats wrong with this sort of politics.

C

Aye was good to see you at bookfair mate.
Not sure if anarchist participation is any higher than other currents/walks of life, i'd doubt. i think it's more that within anarchism, we tend to gravitate to people with not only similar politics (ie class-based) but who have shared interests outside of politics.

C

Internationalist

I read the guilt-trippers' comments on Indymedia and was entirely unsurprised to find an idiot suggesting that my politics are the same as the BNPs.

That will certainly be news to the BNP, who once bricked my front window and left death threats on my answerphone.

The defense of guilt-tripping identity politics pretty much sum up why I feel alienated from anarchism and the left in general.

Internationalist

The sad thing is, that while the left wants the working class to get diverted by race and gender issues, the ruling class are laughing all the way to the bank.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/oct/28/ftse-100-directors-earnings-rose-by-almost-half

This is the price of our division and 40 years in which race and gender have taken priority over class in radical politics.

modernity

Paul,

You need to cover racists, like Atzmon, and do it unequivocally, so your regular posters like "Internationalist" and assorted anarchists don't get led down the Far Right path.

madernity

Paul,

In order to save your regular posters and assorted anarchists from a Far Right Path, you need to explain how anti-semitism was radically redefined as a tactic to silence all critique of the Israeli right wing.

Might I suggest "Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History" by Norman Finkelstein as a very good starting point.

james walsh

Read the Norman Finkelstein book- pretty much i can't think of anything to disagree with the man- read the other guys book to. Foriegners and their funny names!

Modernity- i remember that arsehole- couldn't fault anything internationalist said- i may even steal parts latter.

stealing what communism is all about.

james walsh

sorry to say I couldn't make london- but had a great time at my local wargames club- mixing with the class- an unfasionable thing to do in anarchist circles- anarchists I can take em or leave em in most cases.

Internationalist

Good man James.

villa

oy , internationalist , how come your good enough to drink my beer face to face and then ave a go at me on here?!?!

villa

joking x

villa

i meant rasta x

Rasta

Thanks for the red stripe. didn't realise it was you. you seemed like a jolly smiling type. would've chatted more but I was busy stuffing my face and plus was in a slightly altered state of mind due to lack of sleep after catching an early bus, and the aftereffects of adrenaline and anger from facing the piggies trying to intimidate and manhandle us at the march against deaths in custody.
just cos I think [no, change that to "I know"] that you... shall we say, have a bit of tenuous grasp on reality, and espouse ludicrous and morally indefensible doctrines that have left a trail of bloody carnage across the planet (stalinism and zionism), doesn't mean I necessarily have anything against you personally.
Already said all I wanted to say about the subject of this thread on the indymedia thread and only posted on here again as I was directly addressed by someone who I apparently have actually met in the flesh.

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The same applies to other identity politics. That is why, for example, our old friend Rasta is constantly on the look out for anti-black racism and talks as though there is still a slave trade, calling white people "crackas". Unless he can find evidence of widespread racism his ideology is pretty well bankrupt.

Larry

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