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November 08, 2010

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Rasta

Well I beg to differ about France and Holland's foreign policies, unless you think "foreign policy" only refers to whether or not you are actively involved in invading and bombing Muslim countries. Holland's sins may be more past tense than present (but they ain't shown no signs of wanting to give back none of those profits from slavery though, have they), but France has one of the most vicious and evil contemporary, as well as historical, records regarding "foreign policy" - see Haiti, Rwanda, Cote d'Ivoire etc. And it goes without saying (is that why you didn't say it?) that the problems Muslims may have with France, Denmark and Holland may be more to do with domestic policies - i.e. banning minarets and ways of dressing and scapegoating Muslims for everything under the sun - than foreign.
As for Roshanna Choudry, I feel sorry for her in a way that I don't for, say, the 7/7 bombers. She didn't blow up a bunch of random people on a train, she stabbed one MP, who was a cunt anyway, like the vast majority of them. It was a useless action that achieved nothing except her spending the rest of her life in prison, but it was nowhere near as morally reprehensible as targeting random civilians. Maybe if there had been enough of a movement in Britain that could have channeled Roshanna's anger in a more productive direction, and given her a better analysis of society than that provided by Jihadist demagogues, it might never have happened.
Also, she could conceivably just as easily have been a Class War supporter influenced by poorly-grasped Class War rhetoric to do the exact same action. What would you be saying then?

Internationalist

What an idiotic post, Stotty, one of your worst yet.

I can think of lots of very good reasons why "we" (Britain, the West, America and our good friends in Israel) should not bomb, invade and occupy foreign countries.

Killing defenseless people in order to grab their oil or to build permanent military bases is just plain wrong - even when they are arabs and muslims, people regarded as Untermenschen by your pals at Harrys Place.

But protecting politicians and bureaucrats like Stephen Timms does not even register as a reason for opposing war. If cunts like Timms vote for bombing people that's their lookout.

BTW if your aim was to prove that there are some nutty jihadis out there then who do you think disagrees?

Sometimes I think the world's gone mad. Social democrats and anarchists have turned into the most bloodthirsty jingoists around. These days you have to look to upper class tories like Richard Ingrams to find any traces of lefty anti-imperialism.

Rasta

That's not exactly fair either, Internat - by saying people are "only partially correct" about foreign policy he is not saying that they are incorrect, or that he would not be against bombing, invading and occupying foreign countries. I'm sure he is against this, as he's stated on several occasions that he was against (for eg.) the gulf war and supported direct action against it. As I'm sure Class War did - an organization which, by the way, has been characterized as "depraved" by the idiots at Harry's Place (a bit of pyschological projection there then), so I doubt that they are exactly Paul's buddies. Lastly, even if Paul was in favour of invading Muslim or any other countries [which he's not], he is one man, not a movement... I don't know about social democrats, that's a very vague term, but anarchists in general are a million miles away from being bloodthirsty jingoists, even if I think most of the British ones lack an adequate analysis of race to go along with their generally good class analysis.

Internationalist

Rasta, I have yet to see a post here that condemns the rampaging elephant of imperialism ... just a lot condemning one of the malignant fleas that lives on it, islamism.

Dislike of islamism should deepen and strengthen criticism of imperialism, not soften it. And the thrust of the original post was to demoralize anyone who opposes war. It has exactly the same sneering and patronizing tone ("well intentioned") as many of the posts at Harrys Place, which Stott supports a) by promoting it on his own blog and b) contributing directly to Harrys Place, which is social democratic/blairite in its politics.

What is meant by a "sane" foreign policy anyway?

I have no doubt that Tony Blair and George W. Bush could pass a mental health test. They did not attack Iraq because they are insane, they knew precisely what they were up to. Insanity would/should certainly not stand as a defense for war crimes in a court of law.

Blair and Bush had perfectly "sane" intentions when they planned their war against Iraq. They were acting in what they perceived as being the rational and (in their view) legitimate interests of the western ruling class.

I doubt that race played any significant part in the planning of the invasion of Iraq. The motivations were geopolitical and economic. Though of course, some of the rhetoric used by some supporters of the war is undoubtedly racist.

The problem with anarchism is precisely the lack of class analysis which leads to such elemental and monumental errors of judgment as that displayed by Stott in his post.

If his next post condemns, for example, the wars in Afghanistan and the (announced today) building of another 1000 homes in Greater Israel then he might go some way to redeem himself.

But I'm not holding my breath. Stott's political home appears to be the right wing of the Labour Party.

Internationalist

Off topic, but earlier in the year Paul Stott posted a slightly racist comment suggesting that Pakistani society is inherently corrupt.

I think this story suggests that the problem is organized crime, which I can assure him is not limited to Pakistan or muslim societies.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2010/nov/09/pakistan-cricket-match-fixing-wicketkeeper

Still, I am sure Paul will want to correct his error of judgment and praise the Pakistani cricketer Zulqarnain Haider.

Dickie Dido

"earlier in the year Paul Stott posted a slightly racist comment suggesting that Pakistani society is inherently corrupt."

Indeed so wide of the mark that no one in Pakistan has ever been convicted for failing to pay tax. In the 60+ year history of the country.

Haider is now claiming political asylum in racist, Islamophobic old England. Not easy being on the left sometimes is it Internationalist?

Internationalist

"Not easy being on the left sometimes is it Internationalist?"

Depends what you mean by the left. The part of the left represented by Nick Cohen, Harrys Place, Paul Stott and Tony Blair have never had it easier.

However those of us who believe the main division in the world is not between christians and muslims or nice white folk and dirty pakis, but rather between the ruling class and the rest do have an uphill struggle.

When was it any different?

vic

this ones for rasta , i cant seem to post on the other link , stop pissing about like some kind of wiberal wefty and answer the bloody question , if the palestinians should live in palestine , as a palestinian homeland were should the jews live and more to the point were should the israelis live , show some guts, and say somthing real for a change , oh and if you want my opinion islamic fundermentalism is a greater threat to us than capitalism

vic

did ya miss me , thanks for the young , as a jewish marxist, its not my job to make up excuses for what i view as nazis , bin laden and co , i say drown the scum bag basterds in their own blood

Rasta

No I didn't miss you particularly. I do take back my GO FUCK YOURSELF comment because I didn't get your reference to my "racist family" - I now see that you weren't accusing my family of being racist (which would be a bit odd because my family by blood and marriage includes people of pretty much every race on earth apart from Chinese and Australian Aborigine)- you were being sarcastic about a typo I made and suggesting that your writing "Iraq" instead of "Iran" was just a typo too. Well I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that. I seem to remember you writing it twice in that post.
I don't know what more you want me to say about your Jewish homeland. I've made my position perfectly clear. I can only assume that you won't be satisfied unless I agree with you - well that ain't gonna happen.
I don't need to make myself any clearer, but fuck it, I'll say this anyway. Those Jews who were already living in Palestine had every right to be there, just like the Muslims, Christians and whatever few atheists or other religious or ethnic groups lived there. Those who were shipped in to take over the land (with or without their knowledge - I recognize that many had little choice as they were fleeing certain death in Europe) did not, and do not, have the right to take that land by force (and by mass murder) from those who were already living there. Just like, if Palestinians fleeing Israeli oppression were to come to my country, Guyana, claiming it's "their homeland", they would not have the "right" to it as a homeland. Why the hell should they? What have Guyanese got to do with Israeli oppression of Palestinians? Not a fucking thing, just like Palestinians had not a fucking thing to do with the Nazi oppression of the Jews (and don't bother trotting out the few little examples of nazi collaborators in the Arab world - a hell of a lot more Muslims fought against the Nazis in WW2 than fought for them).
Jews, and anyone else, can live anywhere in the world they want to, as long as it's with the consent of the people already living there. The fact that your community has suffered terrible oppression does not give you the fucking "right" to go and terribly oppress someone else. Someone who was molested as a child does not then get the "right" to molest children.
Bin Laden and co, I agree with you, and the same exact treatment should be meted out to Netanyahu, Bush, Blair, Cameron, Obama etc. etc. etc. and co. As IanI Rastafari say "death to white or black (or jewish or muslim or christian) oppressors."
Islamic fundamentalism a greater threat than capitalism - what a ridiculous statement. Capitalism kills hundreds of people per second around the world due to malnutrition, disease etc. not to mention bullets. Islamic fundamentalism is a really rank amateur by comparison.

james walsh

Yeah- because it can- because it is even less bonkers than islam- how depressing.

The only threat internationalist recognises is that he has spent his life being a threat to developing a left wing working class political consciousness.

That's why he's in such a rage. Poor fellow - but complete wanker as well.

Rasta

Yeah well you're certainly no better "mate", referring to the Gaza protesters as "Islamic twats"... and don't try to tell me that you meant suicide bombers or something - by the context of that statement it was clear (to me anyway) that you meant the Gaza protesters - or at least the Muslims among them - so apparently you and your kind find hearing the phrase "Allah U Akbar" more objectionable than hundreds of children being blown limb from limb and having white phosphorus dropped on em. And you're loudly against the police stopping and searching YOU but when they corner people and try to fucking kill them (which they did in that Gaza march, to some of my personal friends amongst others) you've got nothing to say other than a flippant comment about "Islamic twats." SORT YOUR FUCKING PRIORITIES OUT.

james walsh

Reference please?

www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawkKW_W9Y-ABDj2tADEysvrsXy1JIemXMvA

Al Qaeda was set up by the CIA in 1979. It exists today as a media brainwashing programme to manipulate the people into believing that terrorism is real, and not orchestrated by government


What are the historical origins of Al Qaeda? Who is Osama bin Laden?

The alleged mastermind behind the 9/11 terrorists attacks, Saudi-born Osama bin Laden, was recruited during the Soviet-Afghan war, "ironically under the auspices of the CIA, to fight Soviet invaders".(Hugh Davies, "`Informers’ point the finger at bin Laden; Washington on alert for suicide bombers." The Daily Telegraph, London, 24 August 1998).

In 1979 the largest covert operation in the history of the CIA was launched in Afghanistan:

"With the active encouragement of the CIA and Pakistan’s ISI, who wanted to turn the Afghan Jihad into a global war waged by all Muslim states against the Soviet Union, some 35,000 Muslim radicals from 40 Islamic countries joined Afghanistan’s fight between 1982 and 1992. Tens of thousands more came to study in Pakistani madrasahs. Eventually, more than 100,000 foreign Muslim radicals were directly influenced by the Afghan jihad." (Ahmed Rashid, "The Taliban: Exporting Extremism", Foreign Affairs, November-December 1999).

This project of the US intelligence apparatus was conducted with the active support of Pakistan’s Inter Services Intelligence (ISI), which was entrusted in channelling covert military aid to the Islamic brigades and financing, in liason with the CIA, the madrassahs and Mujahideen training camps.

U.S. government support to the Mujahideen was presented to world public opinion as a "necessary response" to the 1979 Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in support of the pro-Communist government of Babrak Kamal.

The CIA’s military-intelligence operation in Afghanistan, which consisted in creating the "Islamic brigades", was launched prior rather than in response to the entry of Soviet troops into Afghanistan. In fact, Washington’s intent was to deliberately trigger a civil war, which has lasted for more than 25 years.

The CIA’s role in laying the foundations of Al Qaeda is confirmed in an 1998 interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski, who at the time was National Security Adviser to President Jimmy Carter:

Brzezinski: According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahideen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, [on] 24 December 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise. Indeed, it was July 3, 1979, that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the President in which I explained to him that in my opinion, this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Question: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

Brzezinski: It isn’t quite that. We didn’t push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Question: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn’t believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don’t regret anything today?

Brzezinski: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam War. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

Question: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

Brzezinski: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the Cold War? ( "The CIA’s Intervention in Afghanistan, Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Jimmy Carter’s National Security Adviser", Le Nouvel Observateur, Paris, 15-21 January 1998, published in English, Centre for Research on Globalisation, http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BRZ110A.html, 5 October 2001, italics added.)

Consistent with Brzezinski’s account, a "Militant Islamic Network" was created by the CIA.

The "Islamic Jihad" (or holy war against the Soviets) became an integral part of the CIA’s intelligence ploy. It was supported by the United States and Saudi Arabia, with a significant part of the funding generated from the Golden Crescent drug trade:

"In March 1985, President Reagan signed National Security Decision Directive 166 … [which] authorize[d] stepped-up covert military aid to the Mujahideen, and it made clear that the secret Afghan war had a new goal: to defeat Soviet troops in Afghanistan through covert action and encourage a Soviet withdrawal. The new covert U.S. assistance began with a dramatic increase in arms supplies — a steady rise to 65,000 tons annually by 1987 … as well as a "ceaseless stream" of CIA and Pentagon specialists who travelled to the secret headquarters of Pakistan’s ISI on the main road near Rawalpindi, Pakistan. There, the CIA specialists met with Pakistani intelligence officers to help plan operations for the Afghan rebels."(Steve Coll, The Washington Post, July 19, 1992.)

vic

ok , rasta , what should be done with the israelis living thier now? because by your argument all the blacks in england should fuck of back to where they come from and stop stealing our jobs , girlfriends and houses and stop using slavery as an excuse , that is what you are saying isnt it? not to mention the poles and rumanians and stop using unemployment as an excuse , we were here first , the white english , so we should decide how things are done , not a bunch of bloody forighners , if thats what you think i have to disagree with you because i am not a racist, so you must also be oposed to the islamification of tower hamlets then , by the same simplistic logic , you dont sound very clever to me mate

Internationalist

>>> if the palestinians should live in palestine , as a palestinian homeland were should the jews live

Surely the libertarian perspective is that people should be allowed to live wherever they want?

If Jews want to live in Palestine that's up to them. It's not for anyone else to say where they should live.

But it is the Palestinians who don't have the right to live in Palestine, thanks to 60 years of ethnic cleansing, bullying, and purchases, backed by wealthy Zionist foundations, from unscrupulous money-grubbing landlords.

Currently Jews have the right, backed by the Israeli state, to destroy Palestinian homes and communities on the basis that it is the promised land and they (the Jews) are the chosen people.

This is 100% intolerable to any non-racist, let alone to every anarchist/libertarian. Or at least it should be.

However, incessant bullying and smears by the Zionist lobby have made it difficult for people to stand up on this point of principle. In school, I was literally taught that Jews were God's chosen people and that a single Jewish life was worth 150 or so Arab lives (based on the prisoner swaps in the Middle East wars). I don't think this was untypical. We were made to think that Arabs were dirty, smelly, unworthy people and that Palestine was a dump until the Jews moved in.

This kind of propaganda irritates the hell out of me. I am sick to the back teeth of people claiming that it is "antisemitic" to stand up for the rights of disposessed Palestinians and that a Jew who does so is "self-loathing".

This is NOT an issue where libertarians can sit on the (security) fence.

Internationalist

>>> Al Qaeda was set up by the CIA in 1979. It exists today as a media brainwashing programme to manipulate the people into believing that terrorism is real, and not orchestrated by government

Have any of you wondered why, after nine years, the USA has still not captured Osama bin Laden?

The USA is a world superpower. In September 2001 it announced its attention to use whatever means necessary to capture ObL dead or alive. It invaded Afghanistan on the basis that this was necessary to capture the mastermind behind world islamic jihadist terror.

Since early in 2002, Afghanistan has been under the control of the USA and its allies. The border territory of Pakistan has been combed by the US and its Pakistani allies. It is virtually impossible to move in the border country without being hit by a drone attack.

And yet, this man whose face is now more familiar than that of Elvis Presley has somehow eluded capture. By contrast even Saddam Hussein only managed to hide for a few weeks.

As Paul Stott is an expert on these matters, perhaps he could explain how this is possible.

Rasta

Vic- your analogy is not even comparing apples to oranges, it is comparing granite to orange juice. African, Caribbean, Asian, Polish, Romanian etc. etc. people never invaded Britain massacring people and taking over their land and pushing them into ghettoes and bantustans. Moreover, for those of us from the former colonies, many of us were specifically invited to Britain to work the shit jobs (or to "come to the mother country where the streets are paved with gold and where all those superior white people who we're supposed to look up to live", as people like my grandmother were told.) Moreover, they were as I said "people from the former colonies" - bringing up the fact that Britain has been around the world invading people's lands, massacring, enslaving and deliberately starving them to death (refer to Ireland and the Indian subcontinent for the latter) and stealing all their labour and resources, so is hardly in a position to throw a coniption fit when some of the former colony-dwellers come to where all their stolen wealth was taken to try to get a few crumbs off the table, or to flee wars, desperate poverty etc. that are largely the direct or indirect result of british imperialism in the first place.
As for those Israelis already in Israel - that's actually a fair point - you can't help where you are born. I don't live in Israel/Palestine so I don't have any answer to that question. But surely the first steps towards some sort of peaceful co-existence would be (a) acknowledging the wrong done to the Palestinians (b) not participating in further wrong-doing towards them, so refusing military service etc. and (c) actively resisting the oppressive Israeli state, as these courageous Israelis are doing: http://www.awalls.org
James Walsh: I don't have time to scour through the site and give you the url - I post from an internet cafe and while I get a good deal it's not free - but that comment was on the thread where Paul Stott was criticizing Fitwatch for carrying a report about police brutality at the Gaza demo that was written by some group which is allegedly connected to the Iranian regime. (A fair point, if a bit undermined by Paul's strenuous defence of the link he provides to a group that is connected to, or at least supports, the Israeli regime - if people can "take the baby and throw out the bathwater" with regards to that site's coverage of British Islamism, then presumably Fitwatchers are equally capable of agreeing with the content of the report without endorsing the broader views of the people who published it.
If you DIDN'T mean the Gaza protesters by your "Islamic twats" reference, you should say so, cos it sure sounded like that's what you meant to me.

Rasta

Alex Jones guy (there's no way I'm gonna try to type out your username)
Your point about how the U.S., Britain etc. pretty much created Al Qaeda (and were to at least some degree responsible for the whole prevalence of the modern-day Jihadi mindset in the first place) is totally correct. But then you do the typical thing you Alex Jones types do - you use actual facts as a springboard to jump into wild unproven assertions - in this case, that no terrorism is "real" and it is all orchestrated by "the government." (the one world gov't of the illuminati bloodlines I assume?)
Just like your boy Alex jumps from talking about the many real contradictions and discrepancies in the evidence about what happened on 9/11.... to talking about remote-controlled pilot-less planes. It ends up making the whole thing sound ridiculous when there are actually many real unanswered questions about 9/11 without throwing in baseless fantasies.
It's not his accent I'm prejudiced against - actually one of the most "down" white boys I know in the world has the most southern redneck hillbilly accent you could ever hear. It's what he's actually saying. To me he's like the white version of Farrakhan in terms of mixing truth with untruth in a way that ends up diverting people who don't know any better down a complete dead end. The main difference is that Farrakhan is a lot more eloquent - I guess rednecks don't have the same "speechifying" tradition that Black people in amerikkka do.

VK

i tell you what rasta , i do agree with you now , but the practical solution must be the two states one , have a look at the mp getting stabbed link and you will see exactly why i say the things i do , you little post modernist anarchist syndicalist you , tell me what you think you crazzeee keeed x

VK

i will buy you a pint rasta if and when we meet up

www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawkKW_W9Y-ABDj2tADEysvrsXy1JIemXMvA

Alex Jones backs up all of his opinions with govenrment documents. Watch the film Endgame, it is all backed by evidence, and it is all coming true

Unless I am mistaken, I didn't say

no terrorism is "real" and it is all orchestrated by "the government."

can you tell me where I said that?

and again you are making stuff up!

Alex Jones is not a "no planer" he has made that quite clear. Why do you think he is?

Have you watched all his films? They are all free on youtube.

Terrorstorm - a history of government sponsorred terrorism

Obama Deception
etc.

you will find them very interesting.

Alex Jones and Bill Cooper predicted 9/11. (They murdered Bill Cooper shortly after 9/11)

How? Because these guys read the globalists documents and their plans for the future.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5ElXWJozEQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXWKRtcvLGY

Here are the BBC reporting that Building 7 had collapsed whilst (WOOPS) it was still standing in the background. Reuters fed them the news feed a bit too early. Reuters knew what was going to happen, because it was a controlled demolition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mxFRigYD3s&NR=1&feature=fvwp

Alex Jones prides himself on going off information which is evidence based, and not making stuff up, as a result he has succesfully predicted the future, and people are now realising that he was not a kook but was correct because he read their plans.

What has Alex Jones said that is untrue and not based on evidence? please tell me

The New World Order is very real, presidents, prime ministers and politicians have talked about it, but never explained it, here they all are doing just that, this is a 10 minute introduction to the future.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHvTy_fVdJ8

By not waking up to this reality and joining the truth movement you are permitting these bastards to win!!

VK

your a looney!

www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawkKW_W9Y-ABDj2tADEysvrsXy1JIemXMvA

That is exactly the reaction the elite want you to have, you IDIOT

They want you to ridicule it so you don't investigate it. They have used psychological warfare on you via NLP in the mainstream media your entire life, to disuade you from researching alternate views. Why? because conspiracy is where the truth is! Hollywood associates conspiracy researchers with loonies intentionally, so you do the same, it is programming. School, University and the media programme you with fucking lies intentionally for the agenda of global control from the powers behind government. Google Georgia Guidestones, Americas Stonehenge errected by freemasons at a cost of $2million. It states that they intend to reduce population to half a billion, so they need to kill off 95% of the population, that includes you, that is why they cause war, they promote big pharma, they poison the water with fluoride, which has been proven to reduce IQ, cause steriliy and cause cancer. These philanthropist people pose as liberals but they are murdering scum. They are vaccinating the kids all over the world to make them sterile and kill them off. They have supressed the cure for cancer, I know it, I have used it on people, it is amygdalin. I could go on but what is the point you will just ignore me, because you are under their spell. You have been conned.

George Carlin, brilliant comedian new the truth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIC0eZYEtI&feature=related

www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawkKW_W9Y-ABDj2tADEysvrsXy1JIemXMvA

The EU: Hitlers Marxist Dream Come True
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Hk1VZR4p1U

james walsh

Is the lonney posting this looney stuff 'internationalist' ?

www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawkKW_W9Y-ABDj2tADEysvrsXy1JIemXMvA

No.

cowards attack the messenger not the message. explain why it is looney

Rasta

Vic- I'd rather a spliff (no tobacco please though), but if you insist on a pint, then mine's a guinness.
Cancer-curer- I'm sure I remember Alex Jones talking about remote controlled planes in a documentary. If I'm wrong I'm wrong but it stuck in my memory. Perhaps he's changed his tune since? This was around the time he was sneaking around the Bilderberg gatherings and producing the "shocking" evidence that they worship some sort of pagan owl-god (or that they are a bunch of overgrown drunken children indulging in fraternity-style entertainment, depending on your interpretation). I couldn't care less if they worship pagan owl-gods or an asexually-born crucifixion victim - it's the fact that they are rich scumbags fucking over the poor that bothers me. And if you were to kill each and every one of them they would be instantly replaced by another set of rich scumbags fucking over the poor because that's what this system is all about.
By focusing on, and exagerrating, certain specific parts of the problem - rothschilds, bilderbergers, the federal reserve etc. - Alex Jones et al are diverting attention from the whole problem - the capitalist system (and so-called communist countries are just another form of capitalism anyway, state capitalism).
And capitalism itself is the end result of a certain way of thinking that was a problem before modern capitalism existed - the whole idea that some people are somehow "better" or "higher" than others. Until there are no more elites anywhere of any kind (including men over women, one of the first such divisions that came about in my opinion) then the system will exist and people will continue to suffer needlessly.

www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawkKW_W9Y-ABDj2tADEysvrsXy1JIemXMvA

"This was around the time he was sneaking around the Bilderberg gatherings and producing the "shocking" evidence that they worship some sort of pagan owl-god (or that they are a bunch of overgrown drunken children indulging in fraternity-style entertainment, depending on your interpretation)"

This is Bohemian Grove. It is important to expose it because it isn't widly reported, and it exposes something very strange to a wider audience. It is particularly relevant to religious people. Presidents pose as decent honourable Christians, and then you watch this film and find out that they are engaging in mock human sacrifice and stone owl worship IN SECRET. Thus is becomes instantly clear that these people are not what they pretend to be. This is why it is of value. You do not have to be religious to find value in the information. Also what hits you is that although you might not be religious, these elite CERTAINLY ARE, and their religon is LUCIFERIANISM. This is very important, because then you can understand their motives from a luciferian perspective.

"it's the fact that they are rich scumbags fucking over the poor that bothers me. And if you were to kill each and every one of them they would be instantly replaced by another set of rich scumbags fucking over the poor because that's what this system is all about. "

I agree to an extent. However in the truth movement we do not (on the whole) advocate this kind of action, ie. murdering the elite, although it is tempting. We tackle it from the bottom up, by waking other people up to the truth of all this stuff which takes weeks to absorb, but basically we get people to recognise the elite is the enemy, and the elite control everything, staged terror, the money system, big pharma poisoning people, phoney global warming taxes, multiculturalism to destroy countries, education, the media etc.

The system that you refer to is I guess "capitalism". This is not the full picture. The elite, that you have highlighted sit at/near the top of a pyramid, controlling and funding both the left and right wing of politics. What you need to grasp is that the standard political paradigm is fake, and it is not a real reflection of true politics.

Consider if you will a group of random human beings colonising a new planet. Those humans would not be divided into left and right wing people, they would be divided into controllers and the controlled. This is what we have on Earth, at least in the west. We have controllers (an elite minority) and the controlled (everybody else). Yet we were programmed by the controllers to believe that our only valid political system is left and right, and if you claim anything else you are a racist nazi lunatic or something, and they have programmed the people to parrot this too. They have done this on purpose, it is called divide and conquer. They funded the left and the right, and informed the left that their enemy was the right, and vice versa. So a century or so on from this people on both sides are now waking up and are now focusing on who the real manipulators of our world are, ie. the elite, because dedicated researchers on the interent have pushed this info out there. The TV and the mainstream, is a pile of lies, the elite control all mainstream media this is called "full spectrum dominance". The internet is unfiltered at present so the truth can be exporessed. The interent is one of the elite's biggest regrets, as it is hampering their plan for the world. The net is also full of lies too, so who do you know where to go? You investigate the places that are persistently demonised by the corporate elite mainstream, ie. the conspiracy researchers, if the mainstream hate them, they must be telling the truth. then you spend a few weeks researching all this stuff, trying to prove that their perspective is wrong, and you will find much info attempting to debunk it, but the debunks are pathetic, they debunk the most easily debukable points, and conclude that all of the theory is junk. When you have been told your entire life things are a certain way it takes a good long while to understand that they are not. You will find yourself engaging in denial and dismissing the info outright. I understand it looks crazy. the elite know this and they pay people to highlight this, and people dont want to be different so they go along with the herd. The elite are very very clever. You are under psychological warfare everyday from the Guardian and The BBC. These compartmentalised repeaters in the media are also just like you, they are under psychological warfare, and are not critical thinkers. But the further and further you go to the top of the pyramid, the more and more the people at those levels are engaged in the psychological warfare of those underneath them. Anyway, I digress..

You see it is not the capitalist system, it is the pyramidal structure that is wrong. Each level of the pyramid you go up, more and more secrets are concealed. It is the freemasonic order. All presidents and prime ministers are freemasons working for those ABOVE them, whilst PRETENDING to work for us. Most people think that the government is a bit crap, but not evil. But they are wrong, they are evil and are very intelligent, they are so intellegent that they have convinced the people that they are a bit crap. They have done it on purpose, they want people to have a lackadaisical approach to politics so that they can continue their agenda. Focusing on Capitalism is irrelevant. The Rothschilds funded Fascism, Communism and Capitalism to deceive the people into different camps. Marx was working for the elite. The elite are GLOBALISTS. It is their specific ISM that you need to expose. WHY GLOBALISM?

BECAUSE IT IS NOT ABOUT MONEY. IT IS ABOUT POWER AND CONTROL!!!

They have all the money in the world, now they want a reduced population to be their slaves. This is why more and more people are working for the government.

THE ANARCHISTS WILL NEVER WIN. why? because you are working for the enemy and you do not realise.

In 2009 the European President announced that it is the first year of global government!! IT IS ALREADY HERE

This situation has been permitted to happen because of compartmentalised fools who think left/right politics is the truth, but you have been brainwashed into this imposed reality so it is not your fault. THEM AND US is the real paradigm.

They do not want us to unite and figure out that we outnumber them a million to one.

Alex Jones wants to return us to small governments which we the people can keep a check on and prevent from becoming tyrannical. In Brtain we were sold out to the Globalists after the war, so most people have no idea of real freedom

Global government is an opportunity for absolute tyranny. They are subjecting us to allsorts of subtle attacks

CHEMTRAILS- spraying aluminium and barium form planes every day, they are above our heads. The trails are not contrails. It is poison, they are geoengineering the planet and damaging our immune systems

BODY SCANNERS- They are bringing in cancer causing, child porn violating full body scanners to airports and law courts worldwide this year to get a biometric reading of all humans, so they can maintain control of us. The scanners see everything, its not how it is represented in the press.

MICROCHIP IMPLANTS - when the new global money system comes in they are putting all our data on a micro chip and inserting it in our bodies. They have already begun inserting chips in people, those people have done it to be safe from terrorists. LOL. All money will be on that chip. cash will not exist. If we misbehave they will turn off our chip, or probably use the technology to send micro-electric currents around our bodies at harmful frequencies.

there is a lot more

1984 was written by a man who knew their plans.

www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawkKW_W9Y-ABDj2tADEysvrsXy1JIemXMvA

A thick blanket of creamy poison all over the sky today as usual, "white cloud" as reported by the BBC

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=144164

count nostromo of the illuminate martian chapter

you are either realy realy stupid and gullable , or just plain thick with very low self esteme , their are no real conspiracies , just vested interests you paranoid fuckwit , lay off the weed , you sound like somone with drug induced psychosis , get some real friends , not cyber ones , play football and go for a pint instead of wanking yourself of over the illuminate on your laptop all day , get a job , choose life , open your curtains , you are not under survellance , honestly, get help , professional help , its not too late

www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawkKW_W9Y-ABDj2tADEysvrsXy1JIemXMvA

NO CONSPIRACCIES hahahaha

so the idea that rich people get together and work to gain total power is ludicrous. Hmm who told you this? The rich people who own the media.

see the problem there.

I have spent year investigating this stuff and its all true. You have read the Guardian and listened to the BBC and decided its not true, because they have vested interest in informing that they are not true. I used to read the Guardian and listen to the BBC, before I discovered it was propaganda.

you're the fool and you are going to find out very soon, because I know the future.

So you say there are vested interests which are kept secret from the public. Er hang on, isn't that called a conspiracy?

www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawkKW_W9Y-ABDj2tADEysvrsXy1JIemXMvA

Your repsonse is absolutely typical of a collectivist sheep, yet you think it is of value and that you have arrived at it as a result of critical thought.

You have been born well into the programme so when someone comes up to you and tells you that it is only a programme, you must resist that concept at all cost because your whole reality rests on that programme being real. As a result it is impossible for you to act as an informed indiviual with a clear open mind to your consciousness, you have to act according to what the programme dictates.

james walsh

Rasta- Take note of the pointless of arguing with the self referencing insane.

You gave a very reason response- but you know it's a waste of effort for such a fool or wind merchant. Anyway I'd share a spliff and a pint with you some day - double Vodka is more my thing on the booze front.

I can tell you the illuminate any financing any left I've known. The odd bit of moscow gold- yeap in the old days. But I can only speak with 100% authority on CW, Weekly worker & the old CPGB. But I have a far idea where some other groups have gotten finance- and it ain't the fucking Illuminate you fucking great tit.

Surely this guy is a wind up. I'd ban his dumb arse. Shame he can't be stuck in a gulag- like the good old days.

VK

rasta , is this bloke serious , with this conspiracy thing , or is he having a laugh , it just seems incredibly pointless and defeatist , it used to be the jews but now its shape shifting lizard aliens , who cares , the conspiracy is in your face and its called capitalism and everyone knows about it ,its like Marmite , you either love it or hate it , the solution is revolution , i supose the conspiracy theorists dont have to face that , because basicaly they are reformists , they love the system but hate the rulers, he is ill , seriously , paranoid , i work in mental health

Rasta

Yup, sounds like a nutter (and that's coming from someone diagnosed with bipolar disorder).
Just to be clear - I know you probably didn't intend the "gulag" comment seriously James, but to be clear I am 110% against gulags and just as much against authoritarian "communist" regimes as I am to authoritarian capitalist ones. After all I grew up in one (well "people's co-operative socialist republic" was the phrase back then) and have the distinction along with two of my schoolfriends of having been publicly caned in front of thousands of people for not standing up fast enough for the national anthem during the North Korean-inspired "Mass Games" we used to have in the 80s. (Not intentionally - I was just taking a rest in the hot sun and didn't get up as fast as the people around me :)

VK

wow , no wonder you are politicised, the thing is buddy , the revolution is coming and it wont be cuddly , better our violence than theirs

VK

you should read chuck palanuiks pygmy

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