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October 27, 2010

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Internationalist

All book burning and all attempts to suppress free expression is wrong, whatever the motives.

As is any attempt to deprive people of their rights as human beings.

Therefore I look forward one day to attending a performance of Wagner's Ring cycle in Palestine.

Internationalist

By the way, were you aware that most Arabic books are banned in Israel (the Middle East's only democracy ha ha) - where 20% of the population are Arabs?

Or that the Israelis prevented all books from entering the blockaded territory of Gaza?

Never mind - let's blame the stinking muslims.

darren redstar

I think we begin to recognise that the form of internationalist's 'internationalism', follows closely to that of the International Third Position.

Rasta

I don't know or care what the "International Third Position" is, and I am not a cheerleader for Internationalist, but I have to ask, what form does your internationalism take? Given that it seems to involve defending Israel as a "democratic state" (so is Iran by the way... oh, and Hitler was elected as I'm sure you know) with some sort of inherent "right to exist" which must not be "denied" [quoting from your blog]. Is this the International Leon Uris Position? Maybe along with your medieval studies you should undertake a bit more study into the history of your pet "democratic state"... you might want to look into slightly more reliable accounts than Uris'... Pappe, Averney, Finkelstein and Chomsky might be a start... or do you follow the Harry's Place line of dismissing anyone who is against Israel as an "anti-semite", even when they happen to be as Jewish as Jewish can be?

Internationalist

I would say my internationalism is mostly informed by people like Rosa Luxemburg, Anton Pannekoek and Amadeo Bordiga. Though I don't much like any of the sects that slavishly follow their politics (like the ICC or the CWO).

By contrast, I believe the International Third Position was/is an alliance of ultra-nationalists/fascists.

Hardly the same, Darren, but thanks for the gratuitous smear (again).

Internationalist

Some anarchist called D Bell is laboring under the impression that it is possible to have a rational argument with Zionists. Here is what they told him after he posted a very moderate comment critical of Israel over at Harrys Place:

the left (and others) when employing holocaust imagery and themes has nothing to do with making informed parallels – they’re not interested in a study of history rather they have a political objective in turning the Jewish trauma of the holocaust against present day Jews – in short they’re anisemitic scum.

So the left (and others...) are not allowed to mention the holocaust when alerting people to the dangers of racism. The holocaust is the exclusive property of Zionists, and anyone else (but particularly leftwing Jews - note the constant hate Harrys Place directs towards Tony Greenstein, for example) who refers to it is "antisemitic scum".

The people who frequent Harrys Place, including it seems Paul Stott, have a tribalist and totalitarian mentality. I would not say it is necessarily fascist but it is repugnant to say the least.

vic

you lot are such a shower of shit , first of all they have already played the ring cycle in israel , secondly arabic books arent banned , i wish you bunch of antisemetic dicks would stop telling lies , its no wonder so many people are flocking to the edl if you lot are the alternative , militant islamists are scumbags , just like any other religeouse loonys , and secondly we should ban the burca , NO BURCAS IN BIRMINGHAM TILL THEIR ARE MINISKIRTS IN MECCA ,shalom you racist cocks

Rasta

Don't imagine you ever watched that video I posted or re-read my comments that you obviously didn't read, you open-minded person you.
Let's ban trousers in summer and make people walk around in their underpants. If you don't agree, you must be a sexually repressed person desperately in need of liberation.
"just like any other religious looneys" - YES - like the ones who run Israel.
I can't speak for anyone else's comments, but as far as I'm concerned, I am not fucking "anti semitic", idiot boy, and not a damn thing I've written is a lie. Look it up for yourself! But why am I telling you that... I know you won't do it... it's like arguing with republicans (the amerikkkan ones, not the irish ones)... utterly pointless.
Say hi to your Nigerian sister-in-law for me.
PS re the republicans comment - I am not a fan of the democrats either, just to be clear!

vic

listen carfully , rasta , israel is run by CAPITALISTS , just like britain and america , so do you agree with me then , that israel is a democracy , arabic books arent banned , the islamafash carried out 9/11, they play wagner concerts ,and their is no aparthiet ,and the jewish people have a right to a homeland, show some guts and answer the fucking question,(and whats wrong with women being free to wear what they want ? )or prove me wrong ,like most of the wiberal weft , your politics are all over the place, you dont see any point in arguing with me cos you know you are going to lose , lol

vic

actualy , rasta your not as bad as the rest of them , but it realy is simple class politics , you iether oppose or support sexism ,racism and religeon , well its pretty obviouse to me that israel is small potatoes compared to iether britain america or mecca when it comes to these things , so why the wankfest over israel , is it simply cos the islamafash have the cash to spread their filthy antisemetic ideology far and wide , and poor gulable fools like you get sucked in , cos your lonely and want a family to belong to , lol

Rasta

Victor.
Go back to the other thread where I posted the video debate between Norman Finkelstein (a Jew) and former Israeli foreign minister Shlomo Ben Ami (a Jew), presided over by Jane Goodman (a Jew) of the Democracy Now! radio show. Actually watch the video. Also, actually read the comments I posted in response to you on that thread. Then, come back and talk to me. Otherwise, don't bother. I won't respond to comments in baby-talk, by the way. And I have a family composed of a great many people in a great many places of all different so-called racists, creeds etc. etc. That's the family of those who know that equal rights and justice stands for all and that all oppression is always wrong no matter who is doing it to whom.

Rasta

Meant to say "so-called races" above, not "so-called racists".

victor koenick

ok budd , i apologise for being rude , i know that was uncalled for , but could you please address my points , specifically , at the end of the day i dont think we disagree , oh and i cant stand norm , typical whining whinging jewish self hater , my point is Israel is no beter or worse than any other country , the weftys hate it particularly cos its got a lot of jews, i say , two states , policed by a multinational force and jerusalem as an open city(like the Vatican) real solutions in a real world for real people , not wiberal wefty wacists, i look forward to a grown up reply................

Internationalist

NO BURCAS IN BIRMINGHAM TILL THEIR ARE MINISKIRTS IN MECCA

I think I came up with that slogan although you have subtly changed it. What I said was

Burkas in Brum - miniskirts in Mecca - a woman's right to choose.

I.e. one should not be dependent on the other.

Has Wagner's Ring cycle been performed in Israel? I know that one or two brave Israeli conductors have performed Wagner abroad, in return for which the have been called "self-loathing" by the usual Zionazi shits.

I did not say all Arab literature was banned in Israel. But books from Syria and Lebanaon are, which accounts for about 80% of demand among Palestinians.

I get a little tired of people screaming "antisemite" at anyone criticizing Israel.

Apparently in anarchist circles it is acceptable to be against the state, so long as it is not the state of Israel.

Internationalist

>>> my point is Israel is no beter or worse than any other country

I should imagine you would disagree if you were a Palestinian whose home has just been bulldozed to make room for "settlers" who speak with Manhattan accents.

victor koenick

i agree with you totally , i don't like that as i prefer a good row but sadly you are right , well done you and yes the ring cycle has been played in Israel , their was violence in the crowd and understandably so , i love wagners music too , but he was possibly the first Germanic Nazi , the thing is their is a very real anti-Semitism on the left which is disguised as anti-Zionism , and the islamafash love it , that was how the ayatollah took Iraq , he partnered up with the left on the common ground , anti-Zionism , anti -capitalism , took over , then killed them these guys know what they are doing and they have an agenda , what happened in the formation of Pakistan closely mirrors Israel , but everyone is strangely quite about it, fear and racism i suspect , whereas anti-Zionism is very fashionable and always has been , because of the deep seated nature of anti-Semitism in Britain , great slogan by the way , well done , .....RASTA,COME OUT TO PLAYYYYYY

Rasta

I think your comment about Norman Finkelstein is rubbish and quite insulting to someone who lost virtually his entire family, on both sides, to the Shoah. He certainly comes across as someone who respects himself and doesn't take shit from anyone, not the usual mark of a self-hater. By the way, his views have been endorsed by Raul Hillberg, generally considered the "father of holocaust studies." (and a holocaust survivor himself, if I'm not mistaken).
The partition of India/Pakistan is a PARTIAL analogy the creation of Israel but certainly not an exact parallel.
What are you talking about as far as the Ayotollah and Iraq? Are you confusing Iraq with Iran???
Anti-semitism (if you mean anti-Judaism) is indeed deeply cemented in Britain, as in the U.S. and the rest of the "Christian" world - much more so than in Muslim countries, until the creation of Israel - Churchill and them lot didn't like you Jews any more than he liked us niggaz, and I'm sure would've gladly let Hitler wipe all of you out if Hitler hadn't threatened British hegemony as well.
I've met one or two people in the Palestine solidarity movement who have said some dodgy things bordering on anti-semitism (usually white british or american people in my experience, not actual Palestinians). Certainly not most. In my experience most people involved in Palestine solidarity are involved because they believe in justice for all, not because they hate Jews.
More later. Thanks for being willing to debate as opposed to name-calling.

Rasta

BTW white folks, please don't take my use of the Never Ignorant Getting Goals Accomplished word as carte blanche to use it yourself. I speak hip hop and I used to stay in the NY area and sometimes my speech comes out like that... but I should avoid it really so as not to encourage y'all to think you can say it too...

Internationalist

>>>i love wagners music too , but he was possibly the first Germanic Nazi , the thing is their is a very real anti-Semitism on the left

He was an anti-semite, no doubt about it, but then so were a lot of people, for a variety of reasons. Likewise a lot of people were white supremacists. However, that did not make them Nazis. It's just the way Christians had been brought up to think for centuries. All the major religions think they are chosen. That is one of the reasons why we should be clear in our position against religion and the associated ideologies.

Now, can we have a reasonable discussion about islamism and Israel, without reference to Hitler? My view is simply this, that people should have freedom of movement and the right to live in their homes without fear of them being bulldozed by the state or its contractors. You don't have to be a supporter of Hamas or an islamist to take this view. In fact, being a supporter of Hamas is difficult to square with the notion of freedom. Because by the same token, people in places like Haifa have a right to live without the fear of a rocket attack on their houses - whatever their religion, and whatever the reasons for choosing to live where they do.

So why do we feel we have to take sides between Zionism and Islamism? The lesser of two evils is still evil and tribalism just divides us.

If you are a Jew, you don't have to be "self-loathing" to believe that Palestinians are human beings who also have rights. You just have to be a mensch.

Orwell ended up embracing nationalism because he felt the working class was more nationalist than the ruling class. Well that might be true, but it's also one of the reasons why the ruling class is in power. Netanyahu is quite happy to sit down with Mubarak while the people of Egypt and Israel get on with hating each other.

We have to transcend nationalism and sectarianism, not be hoodwinked into making wrong choices, whatever the historical rights and wrongs. The past is done. It's what's happening now that matters and you can't be a libertarian and not feel some solidarity with the hundreds of thousands of displaced and desperate Palestinians.

victor koenick

i agree , when your right, your right , i still cant bear finklestien though, any way , my real point is that a part of the lefts focusing on israel allows them to turn a blind eye to Islamic Nazis , and i have run into very real anti-Semitism on the left , particularly from members of the swp , i have always found the anarchist movement far more grown up , i dont remember any of them quoting Hitler (their is no such thing a s a Jewish race) , or we are all hezbulah now , tossers

victor koenick

oh and i am not a libertarian , i am a marxist , it really winds me up when the left seem to think i should agree with and tolerate racism and fascism so long as its anti-zionist, particularly when i am the object of that racism

Internationalist

Well you could be a libertarian marxist. The two are not incompatible.

The leninist-trotskyist position on national liberation has led them into some total absurdities, such as supporting North Vietnam while claiming to be anti-stalinist, and failure to denounce islamism (especially in the context of the Middle East).

However I seriously doubt that the SWP is antisemitic (though one or two individual members might be). Many of its members are Jews.

Same goes to Respect, who recently expelled a leading member for making some silly anti-jewish comments on Facebook.

However, what is undeniable is that the Zionist movement has used a lot of dirty tricks and in particular guilt by association to tar anti-zionists with the anti-semitic brush. They need to do this because zionism is an indefensible ideology.

I quite like Norman Finkelstein ... what have you got against him?

victor koenick

i am a bit tired , but i would say any jew in the swp is a self hater , also i lived in Israel for about two years and worked with many many old Zionists , they would all have classed themselves as atheists and communists , and for them zionism meant nothing more or less than a Jewish homeland , that happened to be Israel , why is this indefensible? the ideology of Zionism is deliberately misrepresented by the Arab nationalists and their lefty cohorts , cos that's what they pay them for, and that tosser finkenfart has made a nice little career out of it , follow the money , they all do what the Saudis pay them to do , and lets face it everyone hates respect for their far to cosy relationship with Islamic fascists , you should wickapeadia Jewish self haters, its an incredibly common illness

victor koenick

oh and that not to say i agree with the occupation of the Palestinians , they should have a homeland too, and the swpys , well what can you say , at best Stalinist at worst fascist

Rasta

Victor... the only reason I'm even bothering to continue chatting to you is that I think you're a confused young man (correct me if I'm wrong about the young part), not a malicious deliberate liar. Your comments are dumb in my opinion but for some reason I like you anyway. I'll be back sometime to address your comments more fully... but for now... you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever for your slanderous allegation that Norman Finkelstein is financed by Saudi petro-dollars (and Saudi Arabia is more or less an ally of Israel anyway, although that's not popular with their citizens, but the Saudi gov't doesn't care about that). And for cripes' sake... if you expect anyone to take you even remotely seriously, you had better learn the difference between Iraq and Iran (re one of your previous comments). They were only in a bloody war with one another that lasted almost a decade and claimed hundreds of thousands of lives on both sides!
Talk to ya later re your other "points"...

www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawkKW_W9Y-ABDj2tADEysvrsXy1JIemXMvA

You are all wrong.

Hitler was an anti-semitic Zionist working for the Jesuit Rothschilds.

Nazi = Nationalsozialismus? (Oh yeah! how does that work)

Nazi = National Zionism (makes sense)

Nazi = derived from the term Ashkenazi Jew, Rothschild's Jewish heritage (also makes sense)

The Zionists used the disposable Jews in the Holocaust as a political weapon to establish Israel. Zionism is anti-semitism, but most people have been brainwashed with their propaganda, and will find that notion untenable.

Nazi Support of Zionism
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/antisemitism/nazisupport.cfm

The need for the creation of the state of Israel was explained by Albert Pike in 1871,

http://www.threeworldwars.com/albert-pike2.htm

Israel is to be used to start World War 3, which will be provoked into being before Spring 2011.

romanticanarchist@i'malizard.com

...and I would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for those pesky kidz!!

Rasta

Oh crimons it's the Rothschilds etc.... one of my housemates is getting obsessed with all that stuff, the rothschilds, the illuminati bloodlines, etc. etc.... I keep getting woken up to the annoying braying redneck voice of Alex Jones on some "documentary"... I try to get the point across that it's the whole capitalist system that's the problem, that even if there are illuminati bloodlines or what have you, if you were to get rid of them, there would still be someone to take their place in the system, and that Alex Jones et al are really conservatives masquerading as radicals... they keep going on about how america has been "hijacked" by the bankers [which is code for "Jews" I think] since the federal reserve in 1950 or whenever... oh so it was all fine and dandy and free before then, was it, when they were burning my people alive and sending postcards through the U.S. mail of smiling all-american families standing around our charred corpses, slaughtering the real americans and stealing their land, invading Hawaii, Philippines etc, massacring strikers, and on and on... but try talking sense into a full-blown conspiracy theory addict, it doesn't work.
I'll wait and see if Victor has any more to say before I continue addressing his comments...
In the meantime, re the original subject of this thread, here's an interesting article about would-be book- and author-burners of a non-Muslim persuasion... Arundhati Roy, nuff respect to ya and doncha ever back down to these cunts, not that you ever would:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/nov/04/india-traitors-elite-arundhati-roy

www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawkKW_W9Y-ABDj2tADEysvrsXy1JIemXMvA

Ah well that is where you are wrong. Capitalism is NOT the problem. You have been deliberately misled by others who have been deliberately misled, via education and the media. The REAL problem is GLOBALISM. Globalism is not talked about in negative terms by the media, neither is it really recognised as an ISM. But it is very real and is very much THE threat. The media do not acknowledge its negativity and present the phoney notion that the world is becoming global by evolution, when in fact it has been engineered this way on purpose. Why? So they can bring about Global Government? According to The European president 2009 was the first year of Global Government. But if you talk about it, you are regarded as a conspiracy nut. This is the kind double think they use all the time. Globalists are the people who rule the world, the private central megabanks who issue money as a debt, and those who manipulate the world into ever increasing centralisation. It is all those people in secret socieites in high levels of government, and their leaders above the level of government. You are being used for their agenda of installing a global fascist dictatorship, and you have bought their bull.

"We are grateful to The Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But, the work is now much more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practiced in past centuries."
-Triillionaire David Rockefeller, founder of the Trilateral Commission, in an address to a meeting of The Trilateral Commission, in June, 1991.

The Rothschilds funded Communism and Fascism and everything in between, except for those movements which have escaped their clutches and grown from the grass routes. It is called "full spectrum dominance". They funded both sides of world wars one and two. Why? because wars are a cash cow and it gives them the chance to change post war society. The leaders manufacture fake reason for war, charge the people for the arms. The globalists supply the arms. The countries are made bankrupt or severely economically damaged by the wars, and the countries are changed forever in favour of the new owners, the banks.

Globalism wants you to believe that Capitalism is the problem, so that their global dictatorship can come about more easily. If you are fighting phoney enemies such as capitalism you will never take out the private central megabanks, which are the real problem. They issue money as a debt making it mathematically impossible to pay back. All the other crap on the news about the economy the way they make it look so complicated is propaganda, they have done it that way to confuse people into not trying to understand economics, so they win. They have done this on purpose to enslave the population. The money is not real, it is not backed by gold, the gold standard has been removed. It is only confidence in the market which permits the money to have any value. All of this is proveable.

There is much division within the truth movement as to who these people are exactly. Alex Jones never cites them as simply Jews, as he believes that this is not the case. Alex Jones' wife is Jewish and he is on record saying that he supports the existence of Israel, this is probably because he is a Christian, but that was 15 years ago. There are other Jewish connections too. Due to this, some in the truth movement believe him to be a Zionist gatekeeper. However there are others who belive that the Jesuits headed by the Black Pope in the Vatican are at the top of the pyramid making the decisions for the world. So it could be considered that Jones is avoiding the debate with good intentions to avoid infighting, and to focus on the problem and the solution. He sees that the solution is returning the govenrment to the beliefs of the US constitution, rather than being ruled by private offshore bankers, who use a blackmailed Kenyan born telepromptor reading puppet called Barry Soetoro as The illegal president, to give the impression that because a smooth black guy is in power everything is fine. It is all an illusion, he is a conman, he is worse than Bush because he is getting away with it. At least the people knew Bush was an idiot. Alex Jones always says America was not perfect, and has protested the KKK as well as Bilderberg. But things are changing, people are waking up to the truth and the elite are getting scared. After being presented with evidence 1400 Architects and Engineers now do not believe the offical story of 9/11. Due to my research I am expecting a major event on the level of 9/11 to happen in the USA within 10 days of me writing this. I severely doubt that it will be a positive event. But I hope it does not happen.

If you actually listened to Alex Jones rather than your ingrained prejudices against his accent, you might learn something new, he can debunk everything an Anarchist believes and can explain why you are helping with the plan of the Fascists. Globalism is terrible because they want us under total 1984 style surveilance, it is all proveable in their documents, and they want to kill many of us off, so they posion our food, water and our bodies with unnecessary drugs. I was a leftie, until a year ago, I have been investigating this stuff since then, and I can challenge you on everything. I now know that left-right politics is fake, the elite control both sides, but if you try telling an Anarchist that they can only react with ridicule and scorn, and desperately try and pidgeonhole you or ignore you, because they have been completely sold their fake ideas via mainstream NLP programming, peer pressure and propaganda, and because of it are trapped in a box, and will defend the existence of that box with all their might..

I challenge you to watch the film "Wake Up Call" on google videos then ask me stuff about the new information highlighted to you. There is only a bit of Alex Jones in it.

victor koenick

sorry about writing Iran instead of Iraq, bit like you and your racist family , oh and thanks for the young , now bite the bullet and answer the question , if the Palestinians deserve a homeland do the Jews deserve one too , why is this such a difficult question to answer ? as you are so clever .............

Rasta

I've already answered it, you twat, if you could be bothered to fucking read my posts!!! "My racist family..." GO FUCK YOURSELF.
TO REPEAT: NO ONE - not Jews, not Rastafarians, not anyone - has a "right" to a "homeland" THAT IS ALREADY OCCUPIED BY OTHER PEOPLE WHO DO NOT CONSENT TO ITS BEING "YOUR" HOMELAND.
So, for example, your "atheist" "communist" "Zionist" friends did not have the right to practice their idealistic communal kibbutz society in a kibbutz BUILT ON LAND FORMERLY OCCUPIED FOR GENERATIONS BY PALESTINIAN VILLAGERS WHO WERE EITHER TERRORIZED INTO FLEEING THAT LAND, OR WERE ACTUALLY MASSACRED ON IT, AS EXHAUSTIVELY DOCUMENTED BY ISRAEL'S OWN OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS, AS ADMITTED BY ISRAEL'S FORMER FOREIGN MINISTER SHLOMO BEN AMI IN THE VIDEO I POSTED THAT YOU NEVER WATCHED BECAUSE OF YOUR IRRATIONAL AND ILL-INFORMED HATRED OF NORMAN FINKELSTEIN, AN UPRIGHT AND HONOURABLE JEWISH MAN.

vic

if you are so clever why wont you answer the questions , do the palestinians deserve a homeland ?,do the jews deserve a homeland ? , you are side stepping and prevaricating , most people would agree with me , i dont realy know what your views are , enlighten me ,

www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawkKW_W9Y-ABDj2tADEysvrsXy1JIemXMvA

Palestinians deserve a homeland and they live in Palestine.

Christians deserve a homeland, it is called Earth, they live in various parts of it

Muslims deserve a homeland, it is called Earth, they live in various parts of it

Jews deserve a homeland, it is called Earth, they live in various parts of it

Palestinians are people of Palestine
Jews are people of a religion

Can you see the difference?

Now try and locate your nose

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