A Lack Of Forethought

Today is the fifth anniversary of the London bombings.

Channel 4 have marked this with a series of short five minute programmes each evening this week at 7.25pm, as part of the series 4thought.tv. This weeks programmes have reflected on 7/7 - tonight's will cover how the bombings effected the Muslim community, tommorow's considers a woman whose belief in the afterlive helped her cope with the loss of her sister, and Friday covers the Christian beliefs of a police officer involved in the aftermath at Kings Cross.

Am I the only person who thinks it might have been nice for Channel 4 to give a couple of minutes to someone who wants to argue their belief in secularism and the danger inherent in religion was reinforced by the 7/7 bombings? That it may be a good idea to air the argument that we need a little less religion in our society and the world generally?

It is truly bizarre that a terrorist attack carried out in the name of one of the world's major religions is marked with a series of programmes - advocating religion!

Comments

[Internationalist]

I think it is a bit crass to say that the bombers were acting purely in the name of religion.

Ever consider that they might have been motivated also by a sense of injustice and inequality - you know, the sort of thing that also turns ordinary people into anarchists?

I'm an atheist myself but have to accept that religion can motivate people to do both good and evil.

Same applies to some secular ideologies.

[Gitane]

"Good and evil"?
Immediately reversible and therefore irrelevant to the argument of motivation. Motivation in the name of religion is a futile dialectic. The reasons behind such acts are purely political.

[Paul Stott]

"I think it is a bit crass to say that the bombers were acting purely in the name of religion."

I would not say purely, although I think many on the left were a little too quick to claim that the suicide video released by Mohammed Siddique Khan showed that it was the invasion of Iraq that led to 7/7.
This is certainly the line of the likes of Tariq Ali, whilst some in Respect even went so far as to talk of the bombings as 'reprisal' for invading Iraq. Evidence the planning of some form of attack began before April 2003 is ignored by such commentators.

Why do I say 7/7 was carried out in the name of one of the world's main religions? Because one of the bombers says so. It is worth considering the sentences before MSK appears to be talking about Iraq:

"I and thousands like me are forsaking everything for what we believe. Our driving motivation doesn't come from tangible commodities that this world has to offer.

Our religion is Islam - obedience to the one true God, Allah, and following the footsteps of the final prophet and messenger Muhammad... This is how our ethical stances are dictated."

The full transcript is here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4206800.stm

[Rasta]

Britain has been involved in bombing the fuck out of people who happen to be Muslim for some time before the latest Iraq invasion, so even if there was planning before then that doesn't mean that vengeance/reprisals were not a factor.
The point you make about religion is fair though.
However, to me, a much more glaring ommission than a "secularism plug" was any examination of how many, if not most, of today's crop of Islamist terrorists have received training from the CIA, MI5 etc. (Taliban, so-called "al-qaeda" etc.) In fact they were involved in recruiting, training and indoctrinating "freedom fighters" against the Soviets in Afghanistan to such an extent that they could be considered as much a source of present-day Jihadi ideology as any bearded turbanned cleric in a cave.
PS the bombing of Iraq was also carried out in the name of one of the world's major religions, as George W. Bush and co. made clear.
PPS Voudoun/Ifa/Santeria/Candomble and the other variants of Yoruba and other West African beliefs in Africa, the Caribbean and the Americas also consititute one of the world's major religions, in my opinion, and have never been used to justify terroristic acts (to my knowledge). (Unless you're a chicken getting sacrificed, of course). All "religion" ain't the same.
R.I.P. to all victims of terrorism, whether amateur non-governmental terrorism like 7/7 or professional state terrorism like the invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan etc.

[Internationalist]

"I would not say purely"

Then we have a measure of agreement.

It should be a no-brainer to condemn the crimes of islamic terrorists.

By the same token it should be a no-brainer to condemn the crimes of "the Jewish state" and indeed other state terrorists such as George W. Bush.

Unfortunately, leftists seem to think that they have to choose the "lesser evil".

[james walsh]

If you think Britain bombs people because their muslim- what about Serbia and all the bastards we sold guns to in South & Central America?

Islam is a religion with a lot of potential for political demands and demands for special treatment.

There is interesting (but obvious politics to anybody who has critically read newspapers for 10/20/30 years concerning the politics/policies of the CIA etc).

Paul goes further by looking into how the UK state has tried to play and often pander to Jihadists in the UK.

It's pathetic and petty to expect Paul to write a huge essay every time he writes a blog- he's not writing it for the benifit for those who want to make excuses for their soft arsed excuses that wouldn't wash in front of the class.

[james walsh]

@Rasta.

The British state engages in War- occasionally war crimes that go beyond poor discipline , such as targeting civilian targets in the Balkans.

The British state fights for military victories(usually when it only has a very good chance of achieving them).

Terrorists fight (usually in a rather random inefficient manor) to bring pain to a society so hopefully the society will change its politics because while being about to fight war- it would rather not pay the cost.

I take a very very dime view of those who target civilians for no direct military advantage.

[james walsh]

ps 'PS the bombing of Iraq was also carried out in the name of one of the world's major religions, as George W. Bush and co. made clear.'

What an idiot statement- though some of the ejits claim that their religion gives them strength to carry out the political tasks they set themselves- something that you & internationalist claim that as often can be for the good of the world- your find Marxists and Anarchists if their coherent will disagree with.

[Internationalist]

Off topic but lenin's tomb has plumbed new depths of hypocrisy in its comment on today's Daily Express asylum-seeker and gay-bashing front page article.

Inconveniently for LT, the two gay men face deportation to Cameroon and Iran where they would face imprisonment or worse.

However, needless to say, these two countries are not criticized since that would be racist and islamophobic.

James Walsh, whatever the motives of the individual soldiers who are all very brave chaps doing a difficult job, the British (and US) army is sent abroad to defend economic interests.

Not for "victory". I suggest you put down your war comic and think for 30 seconds: why does the British state really spend billions of pounds sending men and boys to fight and die in remote and hostile parts of the world?

And why are people like you so surprised when the lovable Tommies meet resistance?

[james walsh]

Not surprised at all- when they meet resistence- wish the opposition was less free with other folks blood ans livelyhoods- the soldier are fair game- though I don't rate their chances against the British army very high- if its killing game.
Yeap the victories and politics relates to ecomonics- well der!

I'm glad our lovable Tommies are off playing with nutters- gives the us a rest from reading about them beating their wives and rapeing girls in mainland Europe and bashing the shit out of innocent blokes out for a drink. Wish the nutters would do their best to fuck up the lives of the other people in the countries that their in, though.

So what as your point about my comments?
Agree with you about LT- it's not they couldd point you in the direction of another artical- unlike Paul.

[Internationalist]

What was my point? I was trying to respond to your comment

>>> What an idiot statement- though some of the ejits claim that their religion gives them strength to carry out the political tasks they set themselves- something that you & internationalist claim that as often can be for the good of the world- your find Marxists and Anarchists if their coherent will disagree with.

... but now I realize I misunderstood you. Sorry, my mistake.

[romanticanarchist]

Did i just take some drugs by mistake???? I think that we are all quite aware that powerful groups of people use things like religion/ideology to get other people to do things which they wouldn't otherwise do. Blow themselves up, hand over their money, stand in the street selling boring newspapers etc. Shall we move on to the next subject before i have to disembowel myself?

[Rasta]

@James Walsh
I take a very dim view of anyone who targets civilians FULL STOP.
The British state fights for money and power just like any other state and has more blood on its hands than most. Considerably outdoing Nazi Germany in fact - the British empire was around for quite a bit longer than the third reich and killed considerably more people, albeit perhaps not in such a systematic and gruesomely efficient way. Vast numbers of civilians have been deliberately targeted by the British state throughout history and up to this day. Not to mention the millions who were deliberately starved to death in Ireland and elsewhere.
Personally my sympathy for the troops is limited. Yeah it's an economic draft in effect and people are very ignorant and brainwashed, which is not really their fault, but at the end of the day they all signed up of their own free will (albeit that half of them would be considered child soldiers if they were in a country where 18 years old makes you an adult)... I sympathise with them because they've been duped, but there's also a fair number of sadistic psychos among them and I have a lot more sympathy for the families getting blown up in Afghanistan etc. who have no choice in the matter... they didn't sign a piece of paper and go to the other side of the world, they're sitting in their homes getting blown up because they're untermenschen who don't count.
Why is it an "idiot statement" I made about GW Bush and co? Him and the so-called neo-cons (former Reagan affiliates) believe (a) Armageddon is nigh (b) this is a good thing as it will mean the triumph of the new chosen people (rich white american so-called christians) over everyone else, especially the Muslims who were cast as the devilish enemy(c) the zionists have the divine mission of wiping out Muslims from "the holy land", after which they will either convert to christianity or be wiped out themselves.
These appear to be the actual, sincere beliefs of some of these people. From Reagan's time on, they have been on the record making such statements. Look it up for yourself.
I should correct the statement I made about Voudoun etc. never having been used to promote terrorism - Papa Doc and Baby Doc Duvalier did use a (very distorted version of) voudoun to instil terror in the people of Ayiti. However I think the record would show that it's been used a hell of a lot less for such ends than the "big three" western religions, all of which emphasize war and conquest to an extent that voudoun, etc. do not. (Well, the actual teachings of Christ as reported in the NT don't emphasize war and conquest, but certainly the supposed "followers" of that teaching since then have emphasized it - even more than Judaism and Islam, if anything).

[Mel Arckless]

Re; Tonight's Forehought comments of February 14th February. aout 'alternative' medicine. I think the nice doctor (GP) needs, after 35years in prectice, to join the REAL world. Fact, more money is now being sepent, in the US, on 'proven' non-drug therapies which actually work to make people WELL. How many GP'S using their drugs etc have told their patients to not come back anymore, because they are CURED!!!The medical industry is sorely lacking in purpose, and are not progressing beyond anything other than writing prescriptions for more and more drugs, plus dreadful side-effects which have to have drugs to make the patient tolerate these. Western medicine effects. Western mmedicine dances to the tune of the drug companies. The one thing that they hate is patient EMPOWERMENT. They merely want a patient to keep shovelling down the pills . Maybe the drug company will give him a new car as an incentive. I have observed, at clinics around the world, the receptionist keeping the conveyor belt flowing and booking patients infor yet more appointments. Ihave stated, to doctors, that I dislike the sheer arrogance of the profession. They are always right. My last confrontation, with a doctor, was when he had given me a wonderful 'new' drug which caused me to develop gout. I was told that was a side-effect, so live with it. I refused. I hen read up on it. the cure cost nothing. It was water, a magnesium tablet a day cost pennies. no side effects. To the doctor, Isaid, ' The reason why I don't trust members of your profession is because, the following celebrities would be alive today if it weren't for a doctor. Marilyn Monroe, Heath Ledger, Michael Jackson, Elvis Presley, and, possibly, of late, Whitney Houston, Judy Garland, and the list goes on. And there is me, who survived, at the age of seven years old. Being treated by a drunken doctor for influenza, I remember being given the last rites, so vividly. It was my sister, a nurse, who called in a second opinion, and found that my illness was double-pneumonia, and that I had only three hours to live.I am here to tell this tale, because someone was empowered. Ifeel sorry for all of those oldies , at this present time, who walk around in a prescription-induced, stupor, courtesy of some arrogant quack, making a buck at their expense. Our doctor, tonight, should feel ashamed. Hasn't he ever heard of holistic care. The total health package. And that includes the well-being of the patient. Drugs can affect the natural immune structures of the human body. Drugs and their side effects are the body saying, ' Idon't need this ' There are a lot of 'proven, University -tested, alternatives which work 'with' the body. If you want a final example. My father lived to be almost a hundred, died in his sleep, he only took proven cures. We found that he wasn't even listed on the NHS database. That will show how many times he found the use of a doctor. He, rightfully, didn't trust them. Mel Arckless

[Posh Phil]

Millions were not deliberately starved to death in Ireland.

Twat